BJ Penn: The Prodigy on Jiu-Jitsu, MMA, and Life

If you’ve followed MMA or the UFC in the last few decades then you definitely have heard the name BJ Penn. BJ Penn became a household name to combat sports fans through this meteoric career in the UFC. But before that, BJ became “The Prodigy” through jiu-jitsu and his unrealistic abilities, drive, and determination. BJ whose real name is Jay Dee Penn became “BJ” due to the fact that all of his brothers share the first name of Jay. BJ being the youngest became “Baby Jay”, which then became BJ and the rest is history as they say. As a kid, BJ began

training jiu-jitsu with Tom Callos, a martial arts instructor and student of Ralph and Ceasar Gracie. BJ’s love of jiu-jitsu would later take him to San Francisco where he would train with Ralph and eventually down to Brazil to train at Nova Uniao head quarters under Andre Pederneiras. BJ became a black belt in jiu-jitsu faster than anyone else previously recorded. Three years and four months was the time it took BJ to earn this distinction. Now don’t think that was training three times a week while performing the normal duties of life. That time was spent living, eating and literally breathing jiu-jitsu. There was no doubt that BJ earned that belt, and he proved that fact to the world in 2000 when he became the first American to win a jiu-jitsu World Championship at featherweight. BJ Penn is one of the most respected fighters in all of sport. We had the distinct pleasure of getting to sit down and talk to BJ about his jiu-jitsu, his journey, MMA and more. Enjoy.

You’re the first American to win a world title in jiu-jitsu. What was the impact of that, when it first happened? Did you understand how big a deal that was?

I didn’t understand how important it was back then but as time goes on, that’s without a doubt my personal favorite accomplishment by far. It means more to me everyday. That’s without a doubt, that’s gotta be it- that’s my number one right there.

Are you surprised that more Americans haven’t won any world titles? We have had [Rafael] Lovato, and you could make a case for [Robert] Drysdale but since then, are you kind of surprised that there hasn’t been more?

I am kind of surprised because jiu-jitsu’s so big in America and it does surprise me, actually. But you know what? The Brazilians are so good at

defending their titles in their sports. You know what’s crazy, too? You would think, with so many jiu-jitsu schools transferred over to the mixed martial arts because of the money, but when I was going to go work out at Nova Uniao, I was like “Hey, all the guys are just into the fighting.” I guess they still have an advantage over the Americans, and it’s still their sport, it’s still their art, and they’re still awesome as hell at it. It’s very amazing to me.

How often do you train jiu-jitsu?

I was gonna go train jiu-jitsu tonight, actually. It’s been a little while. I always grapple, always do the training, the MMA training, but tonight I was gonna actually go put on the gi. The All Hawaii gi, and then go train and get a workout in and try to remember my roots for this next fight I got coming up. But jiu-jitsu’s my life. I might not be in the game as much as I used to when I was 19 years old, but that’s my identity. That’s just everything to me.

How long have you been training jiu-jitsu?

I’m 38 now, so I’ve been training jiu-jitsu for 21 years. I can drink now! I can drink now in jiu-jitsu. I can drink alcohol now. (Laughs)

(Laughs) Nice. What are some of the things that have changed (in jiu-jitsu) that you like, that you’re happy to see? And what are some of the things that you’ve seen change that you’re not so happy about?

A lot has changed. How they do all those moves from the bottom and then they end up on people’s backs and stuff. All those moves have changed. I didn’t like watching the 50/50 Guard and all that different stuff. Two people sitting on their butts and trying to do all that stuff. But I think that I probably just don’t like it because I don’t understand it. There’s nothing wrong with evolution. People had to watch, from back in the 70’s to when I showed up, they had to watch changes that they didn’t like then.  Jiu-jitsu used to only be about self-defense, and then it started getting to where people were complaining “Oh, it’s just for the sport now,” or whatever, but everything is fine. I always have to step back and say “Hey, don’t be a hater. Don’t be a hater just because that’s not your generation. You know? Accept everything. That’s part of jiu-jitsu, and I respect everything going on in jiu-jitsu today.

Today, when you put the gi on, what is the typical roll for you? What game do you like to play? What are you looking for? What are you trying to accomplish on your rolls?

Man! I just pretty much do the same game I did since the mid-90s. I have my few sweeps that I like and then I always have my game plan because back when I did jiu-jitsu, I never really did takedowns as much. I mostly just pulled to the guard. So my game always is either take the guy down and get on top or go to the bottom and sweep him. My whole game is always pass, mount, choke, armbar. Pass, mount, choke, armbar. And if anything else comes before that, it happens- I’ll take that finish. But that’s my whole gameplan.

You know, old dog. It’s always hard to teach an old dog new tricks kind of thing. But that’s me, that’s me right there. I go right to the mount and then I start looking for the old lapel choke where I stick my left hand deep and then I reach my other hand in with my right thumb always and then I start forcing their head back. And if they start using their arms to defend, I’ll look for the arm. And if they give the back, they give the back. That’s my game though. Pass, mount, choke, armbar.

Honestly, a lot of people like to pass or whatever first and then mount. I like to go mount first actually, so I always just push the mount first. My whole mentality is mount first, pass second. While I’m in your guard, I try to mount you and then I challenge whatever position I can to try to mount you. But if you defend that, then I’ll take the pass.

Do you have a favorite transition from being in someone’s guard?

I go straight to Half Guard and then I just push the knee down to the ground and then I just slide my knee out and I go to the mount. I learned

that from watching two white belts back in the day, back in like 2000, 2001, I had this white belt that I knew who was gonna win the tournament. He beat everybody. He got to the final and then he was beating this guy 9-0 and then the guy got on top and got in the top guard and just pushed his legs down and got to the mount. And he did it three times and the guy won 12-9 and I was just like, “That’s the best move ever!” My favorite move now, today, I actually learned it from watching two white belts.

That’s crazy. He didn’t know he was supposed to pass first. He just went for it.

Yeah, because when you’re in Half Guard, you just push that knee to the ground and then slide your knee out and go right to the mount. I used that for everything. It’s the most powerful move in jiu-jitsu for me.

That’s cool. I’ll have to pay more attention and try that out next time. So a couple of white belts had a lot of influence in your game. Aside from those guys, who’s influenced your jiu-jitsu the most over the years?

Definitely Ralph Gracie, Renato Verissimo, Rigan Machado, and then whatever videos I could get on people like Rickson Gracie whatever I could watch him do, whatever video they still have left of him out there. Those people, definitely.

Of course, Andre Penderneiras, John Lewis actually helped me a lot. Steve De Silva, Dave Camarillo. Those are all people that trained me from the beginning, and I still remember until today.

Now, is it a particular technique, or is it mindset? What are some of the items that you got from them that come to mind?

Looking at their moves, I look at the different stuff they do… So many different things. Some were actual teachers of mine. Some I just watched videos of them and just tried to emulate what I thought they were doing. Because I always believed that’s how new moves in jiu-jitsu get created because you see, you think somebody did something, you try to copy them, but you just do it a little different on accident while you’re trying to emulate them and then a new move is created. I always believed that.

Have you been paying any attention to the different superfights, the grappling superfights that have been going on lately?

I haven’t seen who’s been going on now. I do know the Mendes brothers are at the top now. I know Keenan Cornelius, he actually grew up across the road from me. His father is the one who showed me jiu-jitsu and so I know about him. And I know Orlando Sanchez. But I really have been out. I don’t know all the top guys right now. (Editor’s Note: This interview was conducted in May of this year.)

Chael Sonnen’s got his underground event that he throws, where he’s got different jiu-jitsu guys going against UFC fighters or different UFC fighters in grappling matches. Are you aware of any of those or have you seen any of those?

Yeah, I remember watching Josh Barnett beat Dean Lister a couple years ago at Metamoris. I try to focus, when I see names that I know, I’m interested.

Is there any appeal for something like that for you at some point?

Never know, never know. Yeah, those things are big. Right now I’m just finishing up my UFC career, but yeah, you never know what the future holds. You never know, you just don’t want to go out unprepared for it. I’ll get wiped out if I don’t prepare properly for something like that. Time passes and people get better and it’s just reality.

You have two fights left in your contract?

I don’t know exactly how many fights I got left in my contract. All I know is they gave me another fight.

How was the training experience with Greg Jackson and Winkeljohn?

It was awesome training up there with Greg Jackson and Winkeljohn. Getting out there, inside and stuff and I loved it. I loved it. It was great. It was kind of tough for me up there because it’s so far away from home and times change and everything. You’ve got kids and all that stuff, so it is kind of tough for me up there. Easy for somebody to say, “Well, then you’re not into it anymore if your kids are more important than the fighting” or whatever, but that’s just part of life.

Where’s the camp for this one? Back home?

The camp’s back home. Right now I just hooked up with my old trainer Rudy Valentino and, I don’t know, we’ll just play it by ear. Don’t be

surprised if you do see me show up in Albuquerque or wherever.

But up there in Albuquerque I met “Barata”- I met him and Roberto Tussa. I was training with those guys a lot. Had some great conversations and they gave me some great private lessons. I love that wherever I am, I see the new black belts I always ask them “Give me some private lessons?” I love that stuff.

Let’s say you’re a young stud jiu-jitsu guy right now and you’re getting on the podium at the Pan Ams or you’re winning world championships and you have that itch to get into MMA. What’s the game plan for a guy like that these days?

Young, hungry kid? He’s a jiu-jitsu champion? Loves doing wrestling? Constantly remember that in the fighting you’ve always gotta move. Why can somebody who doesn’t know jiu-jitsu be able to hold a jiu-jitsu guy down while they’re in the fight? I believe it’s because you cannot do one move, you cannot do two moves, you literally have to shuffle through 20 moves and maybe on the 13th or 14th or 15th move you might sweep the guy over. I think everybody goes for their one favorite move and they get stopped and then they catch their breath, and then they go for it again and again.

I believe you cannot really have a favorite move. You just have to keep shuffling and keep switching, keep switching, keep switching until finally the simplest move is what takes the guy down, is what turns the guy over or taps him out or whatever. I believe you have to just keep going from move to move to move to move forever. But once you stop and you just focus on one or two moves, a guy’s gonna stop your one or two moves and then you gotta just keep going until there’s one move that he doesn’t really know how to defend. And it could be the most simple of them all. I see that happen a lot in the gym training with the different MMA guys.

When you first started competing in MMA, what was the mindset? Did you still have a jiu-jitsu competitive mindset coming in? And did that change over time? And if so, how did it change?

I definitely had a different jiu-jitsu mindset. Yeah, and it did change over time. You get a good punch, you knock somebody out and then you think you should knock everybody out. I think it’s the number one thing to happen to everybody. It’s happened to Ronda Rousey and that’s part of life and that’s when you need a good trainer to sit down and say “Okay, now what happened today was we got lucky. So remember now, it’s not easy to knock someone out. It happens sometimes and sometimes it doesn’t. So don’t forget what got you here.” And that’s on the trainer to tell the student because it’s easy to believe your own hype, it’s easy to believe all those things, and that’s where you find out who’s the good trainers and who’s worthless.

Are there times when you just want to bang or do you have to catch yourself like “I better go back to what I know”?  Lots of times I would see jiu-jitsu guys, I won’t say any names but, man, their strong suit is on the ground and they just want to stand up and bang with guys and they end up losing the match. Obviously, you’ve been doing it for so long and you’ve got skills all over the place. But is it difficult to figure out when you wanna take it down or to fight that urge to stay up? What’s that mindset like, as far as deciding where you want the fight to go?

That’s it, you don’t. It’s really in the coach’s job at that point. And how good your connection is with him. How good he can control your fears,

your nervous energy, and your intuition on everything on what you should be doing. Everybody likes to get that real quick knock out, get that punch, and then they’re happy. But it affects everybody.

I was just bringing up Ronda Rousey and she’s judo, but everything was all submissions and then she knocked out Bethe Correia, and then everything was all punching with Holly Holm, and then one more time, she’s still stuck in it. Punching again with Amanda Nunes one more time, so it’s something. It’s all in your head. That’s the biggest question ever, right? Two jiu-jitsu black belts go to fight in the ring, and now everybody gets to watch an amateur boxing match. [laughs] It’s like, “What the hell is going on?” But truth is stranger than fiction, right?

That’s funny. Going back to jiu-jitsu, you prefer gi or no gi?

I like them both, but gi I know that I will be doing that one for the rest of my life. No gi is just a faster thing. I could do no-gi for the rest of my life, too, but gi for sure you know 70, 80, 90 years old, if you make it that far, you can be rolling around in the gi. It’s just a beautiful art. I still believe today, jiu-jitsu is still the best form of self-defense. It might not be all you need to win the UFC belt, but it’s self-defense. You shouldn’t be getting in trouble anyway. If someone’s attacking you, you can always run away. And if they tackle you to the ground, you can defend yourself, get back up, and run away again. I still believe still today, if I could only choose one martial art for self-defense, jiu-jitsu is still, by far, number one. Nothing else even comes close.

Do you teach at all?

You know what? I have a lot of gyms and I stop in and I give seminars and I do lessons, but I was always a fighter. I was always a competitor. All the time, from the first thought of mine to training was always to train myself and compete. But if anybody asks me a question, I’ll help them as much as I can. But there’s other people that are still into the teaching more than I am.

If you never discovered jiu-jitsu, what do you think you’d be doing right now?

I don’t know. My dad always wanted me to be a lawyer but I don’t know. I think I’d probably be a bum.

Being a lawyer, that’s like legal jiu-jitsu or jiu-jitsu of the mind or with your words.

Yeah, verbal, right?

What’s your take on Conor McGregor and Mayweather? You think that will happen?

I would think that Mayweather would have the advantage because it’s a boxing match, but I think that Connor is younger, bigger, stronger so you can’t count him out. But Mayweather, I would think it would be like putting a wrestler and Olympic wrestler into a jiu-jitsu tournament. I would think it’s like putting an Olympic gold medalist wrestler into a jiu-jitsu tournament world championship and see how he would do. I’m sure he would get the takedown but I think that it would have to favor the jiu-jitsu guys in the gi. I think that’s the same thing with the boxing. So, we’ll see. For combat sports, all it takes is one and you never know.  But that’s the one thing too, in fighting or whatever. Lucky punch. There can be a lucky punch, but never a lucky choke or a lucky armbar.

[laughs] That’s a good point. What type of training have you done when you felt like your absolute best? What kind of training are you doing that gets the most out of you?

Training always changes. Everything, the routine always changes. This and that, I don’t know why. It’s just part of life. I think the body just likes to evolve. I don’t know. I’ve done so many different things and at certain times have made me not feel as good and many of them made me feel my best. Never really one exact way. You gotta change your speed though. In the world of martial arts speed determines the victor. Just like in “Kung Fu Hustle” when he said that, and that’s true. Everything is speed and that’s the whole thing. Who’s the fastest and not only the fastest body but the fastest thinker out there. Who’s the fastest thinker. I believe speed is the key. If you wanna be good, change your speed.

Is there a particular diet that you feel your body performs best on? Or a way or eating?

I like now, at this age, I like the fruit. I believe the fruit is everything. That’s where all the manna is, that’s where all the strength is. I believe everything is in the fruit. That’s the strength of the whole tree. That’s why I like to eat the fruit. If you’re gonna ask me “Okay, BJ, you’re gonna go fight to the death tomorrow” or in a few hours or whatever, I’ll say, “Okay, bring me some apples and some cucumbers and then, let’s go.” I believe in the fruit.

How about supplements? Do you take any type of supplements or anything like that?

I take hemp seeds. I try to take Ashwagandha and all that kind of stuff so that … and whatever natural anti-estrogen they’ve got out there like the chrysin, passion flower, and all that kind of stuff to keep the estrogen down. And it’s true, maybe if you talked to me 18 years ago at 20, I would have given you a whole different take on it. But as me, right here, pushing 40, I’m all about fruits and the natural ways to keep your testosterone up and keep the estrogens down.

What’s the best piece of advice that anyone’s ever given you? Whether it’s life, jiu-jitsu, MMA, anything.

Stop fighting already, BJ. Enough already. [laughs] The best advice is, I don’t know, it’s the same thing, like who’s the best surfer? The guy out there having the most fun… Have fun, man, before you die, before dedication. Love it and have fun and be happy and enjoy life.

Cool. Anything else you want to say that I might not have asked you?

Of course I want to drop bjpenn.com, check it out and then I wanna say such a big thank you for all the fans who followed me for the last 20 years.  I wanna say thank you to all the people who helped me along on my journey. I don’t have to say names, you all know who you are.